PROFESSIONAL PROFESSIONALS feat. Stacy Goh

*Welcome to PROFESSIONAL PROFESSIONALS, a new-ish curated content stream where I interview people who are extremely good at what they do! Often, growth in tech companies will occur c/o some incredibly niche specialisations (even when it’s generalists delivering it) so I’m painting a word picture here of some of the builders out there who do some pretty great work a little out-of-sight sometimes, but who most definitely know what the hell they are talking about. Enjoy! - Gaz

I met Stacy very recently. In fact, didn’t know her at all personally, prior to a month or so ago, and first heard her speak on the recent Generate B2B Marketing Community Conference in Sydney.

What prompted me to reach out to have this chat was most definitely her extremely clear articulation about the opportunities in a collaborative environment where marketing and product efforts collide.

Plus, as you do when speaking on a panel alongside some other professionals, she had a tight spot to storytell as effectively as possible, and nailed it, but most impressively I thought, was able to talk a little more about the current AND future roles of a marketer, as buzzy AI-style roles such as ‘GTM engineer’ start to creep into our vernacular.

Stacy’s already involved in this type of work at Jasper (great career trajectory story there) and prompting as an art-form, but with a very clear respect for communication and language and design, and I thought it suited the types I’m trying to curate for this content stream, so here’s Stacy Goh 👇️

Gaz:

Stacy thanks for joining, let’s leap right in and start with where the career is at right now, and how curiosity or some interesting things occurred to lead you in that direction?

Stacy:

Yep, I’ll start with the second aspect, because I think it explains how I got here. My very brief background is I've worked in startups kind of forever, almost always as a solo marketer. When COVID happened, I got a job at this tiny startup called Outwrite, based in Sydney. 

It was my first kind of experience in the AI space, like I got to play around with GPT-3 when it first came out.

I left to work at another startup for a couple of years, because I wanted to work in the social enterprise space. While I was there, Outwrite got acquired by Jasper. I think it’s such a cool little startup success story where, at the time, it was a 5-6 person startup. Bootstrapped as well.

Gaz:

Yeah, right! (*thinks to self: love a good bootstrap -> acquisition story)

Stacy:

And when Jasper acquired them, Jasper had just become a unicorn that had raised over $100 million. And they found this tiny startup in Sydney I used to work at!

So whenever people say ‘oh, I didn't realise, Jasper had an Australian office?!’ that's why, because Outwrite got acquired.

So I've since come back to join that team. We have 11 or 12 people in Australia, mostly engineers apart from me.

The pitch to return was basically: ‘Jasper is building all these products for marketers, but we don't have any marketers on our product or engineering teams. A big part of Jasper is about generating high quality marketing content, so we need to have a grasp of what good content looks like, and the challenges marketers face when scaling it to create successful campaigns. One way to remove some of that guesswork is by having dedicated marketers in our product teams.

The Outwrite founders (Nick and Craig) had previously worked with me as a solo marketer, where I had to create so many different types of content. So the initial pitch was: ‘if you come on board, we'd love you to build out all these AI powered templates (note: each template creates certain marketing asset)

That's how the role started. I now describe my current role as being this three-way Venn diagram where one circle is subject matter expert, being the marketing expert, and one is prompt engineer: the art and science of writing prompts to get a desired output.

And then this third circle, which is probably a bit more prominent at the moment, which is product management. My last six months at Jasper have been a lot more about being a PM, with a marketing background.  

We recently shipped a fairly big feature, called Canvas. Actually, not fairly big. That's underselling it. It was a pretty major change to Jasper’s core platform and the way that marketers create and edit content with AI.

We asked ourselves “How can we address all these things that marketers care about, like every piece of content being on brand, being able to turn one brief into multiple assets, creating versions of assets for different audiences or languages, and editing multiple assets at the same time?”

I was one of 2 PMs on that project, along with a bunch of talented engineers and designers. I got to think about it from the POV of how a marketer would work, and draw from experiences of using Miro in my previous role, where I would use that 2D space to have all my campaign assets in the same space.

Hopefully that illustrates how you can draw upon all these different areas of your job, of previous roles, to do this new thing!

Gaz:

I enjoyed when you were explaining the trajectory and then what the day to day looks like, and the recognition of the team that they need this tastemaker involved, the person who can possess the sniff test and help this make sense in the eyes of the user/customer.

What I particularly enjoy is hearing more of you getting on the tools, and not in that traditional marketing flow, as in - all things get done and then it gets put on your desk and basically “market this and fill our pipeline.”

More…involved from the outset, and highly collaborative from a product sense.

Stacy:

Yep, even though we have 20% of the Fortune 500 as customers, we’re still a relatively small company. So it's very easy to be very involved and very connected to what we're doing. And over time, I've just built up the confidence and experience to do things that I guess originally would sit with an engineer.

So rather than me telling someone “this is what I want to do” I'm able to do it myself with some of the tools we have at Jasper.

So, you know, if I see a part of the product that is involved in creating content, I can look at how the prompts are set up, go in and change or test things. It’s very empowering to be able to do that and get to shape products for marketers like me , even though I’m not technical.

It's been a good way for me to get more involved in product, because I can say “the subject matter expertise is very valuable in this particular use case.”

And even outside of working on the product directly - being able to educate my peers about the things that marketers care about and the ways we work, being a voice for the customer internally, is important.

Gaz:

So, to remove the humble aspect from the conversation, what’s one part of your role that you back yourself heavily on? In terms of the specialities within the company?

Stacy:

That's a good question. Because I think I very much pride myself on being a generalist. I don't think I'm very good at only one or two particular things. I think the prompt engineering one in a way is a good one, just because it is still quite new. And I think a lot of people lack confidence in their ability to prompt. We hear this from our customers all the time, they’ll say “I don't know what to write.”

I'm still learning how to be better at prompting every day, because the models we use are constantly changing.

But I still draw upon the key principles of what makes good, clear communication. Principles like using only as many words as you need, being clear, using active voice, a lot of things that I think I started to hone when I was at Outwrite, because our mission was all about helping anyone become a better writer.

I draw upon a lot of those things to then write prompts and build tools so other people don't have to build that skill set, I guess.

I think about it as, if I can help people do the bulk of the prompting, then they only need to come in and kind of put in the specifics of “here's the context that I'm drawing upon” or “this is what I'm trying to do”. I’m the one going in and filling that in for them behind the scenes.

Gaz:

So, a background yourself in creative writing or anything like that?

Stacy:

English is something I've always enjoyed and I did a lot of at school. I studied English Extension 2, like a nerd...

I think working at Jasper has made me think about this stuff a lot more. Like, really diving into the specifics of what makes a good Instagram post, what makes content resonate.

I have to think about it a lot more than I've done in the past, because I'm helping other people (with varying goals, industries, audiences) create these specific pieces of content.

Gaz:

I like that. Another win for the right-brainers, thinking creatively about how to do this stuff.

A lot of this narrative that is driven is this type of FOMO: “if you don’t understand prompt engineering, you’re going to be replaced” and less thinking creatively -  or even common sense - in terms of how to do this better, which is obviously where your sort of role comes in.

So, maybe for the talent coming through, or people adjusting their careers and educating themselves on the job, what would be something you advocate for in terms of getting closer to the product from a marketing perspective?

Stacy:

Depending on the company you're working in (particularly if you're in a startup) I’ll always say try and get as involved as you can, try and find those opportunities.

What I did at previous companies, where I was maybe a bit more on the marketing side, is I'd notice things like copy being used in the product, because quite often we wouldn't have a dedicated resource for that.

Typically, a designer or a PM would write that copy, or would be the ones designing onboarding flows.

And I'd put my hand up and say “hey, do you mind if I write this for you?”

“Because you're probably just going to use placeholder copy anyway. It’s only a little bit of my time.”

it's a small part of the product, but it's a good way for me to showcase my skills.

Also, I love writing product copy because you've only got so many words to use and you've got to be really clear.

So - and I've done this probably almost every company I've worked at - through those little interactions, I feel like people begin to trust you.

They begin to identify you as being an expert in that area. So then the next time someone has to write copy for something, they'd then come to me and say “hi, I'd love to get your eyes on this.”

So those little ways where you can bring value, that don't take you away from the core reason you’re at the company, can help you build up trust with the product part of your company.

Over time, it's then allowed me to then make this shift to product, because I've been able to prove myself in previous occasions that I can help, I can bring value to these things.

When I've talked to some marketers who want to move into the product space, I’ll say start by looking for those opportunities within your own company, because it’s easier than  applying for new roles at different companies and competing against people who have a lot more product experience.

There’s at least two people here at Jasper who’ve moved functions because they've been able to prove themselves - someone who used to work in ops is now a product marketer. They’ve proven over time that they’re experienced in competitor analysis, writing up battle cards, things that align with product marketing. A job opened up, their hand went up, and it’s obviously easier for us to hire from within.

I feel AI can be a good enabler for this: for example, you're seeing designers becoming developers, because they get really good at using Claude code, or using Cursor.

I mean, the main designer I work with at Jasper, we sometimes joke that he's another developer on the team, because he's gotten so good at using Cursor to build prototypes.

I can see plenty of marketers leveraging AI to make that shift. I think in my (Generate Conference) talk I mentioned this increase in content engineers, or go-to-market engineers, who are using AI to build workflows, or build AI agents that can automate part of your jobs…

That in itself is starting to become its own job role, building that infrastructure to then help your team, or another team, scale output.

Gaz:

Yes, barely understood even now. So, yeah, I really like that. It feels as if if the organisation is telling their team, ‘look, stay in your lane’ that fundamentally feels wrong as a marketer, where 20% of your role should be focused on experiments anyway, so you should be experimenting in new tooling, new ways of doing, and naturally, seeping over into aspects of product and engineering now.

So maybe it’s a question for someone if they’re being told to stay in their lane, maybe start thinking about the future a little bit more?

Stacy:

Yeah, absolutely, and I think - I don't know if this was going to come up as a question Gaz - but, for those people worried about “is AI going to take my job? Am I going to be out of work soon?”

It's obviously a very valid fear, but I know for myself, the job I have now did not exist a couple of years ago. The first job I had at a startup in social media didn't exist, you know, 20 years ago.

If you want to be optimistic and you're thinking about changing jobs,  remember that some of the jobs you're going to be doing don't exist yet or have only just come out.

What’s important is building a good enough skill set so that when those new jobs arrive, maybe you're creating them yourself, or you can be the first person to put your foot in the door because you’ve got that mindset. It’s super exciting.

Gaz:

So, with some of this publication's (GROUPED) content, you'll see a large amount of these interviews and other content pieces curated when you zoom out and look back to this interview time a few months down the track from now, where I’ve focused on aspects of Venture Studios for example - building products internally, you know, commercialising, getting out to market quite fast, have some venture backing alongside that.

So that's my lens on where I think a large part of the industry is moving towards with the capital aligned with the brand - what’s your take?

What are you sort of finding interesting, and sort of an indicator maybe for marketers to turn their attention to where the industry would move to in the future?

For those of course that are attracted to working with nascent companies and really putting their hands on the thing and build it, as a very early person in the company?

Stacy:

It's funny you mentioned the Venture Studio thing because that's kind of how I got started. I don't know if you've heard of 25Fifteen? They're like a startup studio incubator. That's where I got my first job…

Gaz:

Oh, no joke. 

Stacy:

Yeah, so I was there while I did my university degree - I got a job at one of the startups in that space, and until I graduated, just helped out at a few different startups there. So it really was my first taste of startups.

But you see how effective it is when you have very small teams working on a problem, and you can move pretty fast.

And that built the foundation of my career, basically being exposed to very early stage startups where, because I happened to be in the room… like, I've named two startups, because I was there and someone asked for my ideas. 

For marketers, that might be really exciting to you to be a part of forming that stuff. The people who are involved in those kinds of startup studios are often incredibly smart, driven people that I've been fortunate enough to learn from.

And it really forces you to think about everything, you know? “Who's our audience? How do we make revenue? What are our channels going to be?”

I was 19, 20 years old having to answer those questions, which is so cool.

Gaz:

I like that obviously it's palatable for some to endeavour to get the job at Canva and be part of the big machine or whatever, while others have the predisposition towards very lean, close to the team, hands on everything…

Stacy:

Yeah, and I think like when it comes to getting a job, I've had a few people bring up the word impact. When you work at a really tiny startup, or an early stage startup and you get to be part of forming the foundation of it, it makes it way easier for people hiring in the future, because you can point out “Hey, I was the only marketer at this company, and look how we went from zero customers to whatever, and, you know, I helped shape that.”

And I feel like when you're at a large company like Canva or Atlassian, it's hard to show that impact, it’s hard to prove. People working at those companies are doing very cool things I’m sure, but it’s just so much easier when you're a team of six, and you've done all these things, and you can say “that was me” you know? “I was the one who built those ads. I built that website.” It really helps, and it's helped for every job interview I've ever done.

Gaz:

So, to talk more about the perception of marketing as it stands currently (across the entire landscape) - what would be your recommendations for how people should shape their understanding (and maybe grow up) on the impact that marketing delivers for individual company growth? As opposed to just filling the funnel?

Stacy:

YYeah, that's a really good question. I mean, I just feel and see so much from working at startups how big a role marketing plays. This might be a very slight tangent, but I've heard from so many marketers that I've met through Generate and whatnot, that one of their biggest issues is trying to get their voice heard at the table, for budget, anything.

And I think I've been very fortunate to never have had that problem.

Marketing has been so important wherever I have worked because, no matter how much effort you put into building this thing and setting up the website and just doing everything that engineers and ops do… the biggest problem for these startups is growth and getting the word out there. To build brand awareness, start getting people in.

And that problem is only going to increase with AI. People can now build products without needing a technical background. That’ll lead to more companies being created, and more competition.

And that means being able to stand out from the crowd (via good marketing) will be more important than ever.

Gaz:

Yeah, I mean, I'll be told occasionally, usually by a founder, usually by founders I've worked with in the past, they’ll say “oh, you know, I just don't get marketing. I just don't understand it.”

And to me it's like: well, I'm getting to know the products and I'm understanding about engineering, and I’m doing the work to unpack all the stories to be able to market this effectively in a number of ways, whether you're telling the story of the founders or the team or whatever, and in particular the product.

So for me personally, I’m more like “Well, why don't you lean in and try to understand the marketing?”

Because it feels like when you do understand a little more over-and-above ROI, you'll see that it's quite a complex thing. I'm just, you know, advocating for the marketers here!

Stacy:

And I'm sure you hear a lot that for some people marketing in their minds just equals advertising. As if Marketing is such a small thing - TV ads, that's marketing, right? Or billboards? There’s just so much more to it.

Working at Jasper really reinforces the importance of marketing, and how it’s a form of  storytelling.

Really good marketers are really good storytellers. And they know how to craft and tell that story in so many different ways.

And again, advertising is a small part of that. You need to be telling the story consistently across so many different places.

So I might be going in circles now, but maybe my summary is marketing is so much more than what people think it is, and when you comprehend how important it is, you’ll obviously gain an appreciation for what marketers do every day.

Gaz:

So, to round it out now, maybe your advocacy for a particular thing for marketers to educate themselves with, that you find very influential, something that encapsulates what you do day to day?

Stacy:

Yep, for resources I'd recommend on AI specifically, there's a guy called Christopher Penn. He has a weekly newsletter - the only newsletter that I read all the time - which very much talks about AI in a very practical, opinionated sense.

Something a bit old now in terms of thinking about products is a book, called Technically Wrong. It came out ages ago, but I like it from the perspective of how important it is to have diverse opinions involved in creating products and what happens when we don't. It talks a lot about, not edge cases, it calls it stress cases, thinking about all the different types of people that use your product to solve a particular problem and how thinking that way helps build better products.

And it, talks a lot about, not edge cases, it calls it stress cases, thinking about all the different types of people that use your product to solve a particular problem and how thinking that way helps build better products.

Lastly I'd call out Kayla's newsletter, but you've obviously, you've had Kayla as a guest already…

Gaz:

She’s had enough plugs you know?

Stacy:

Yeah, but honestly, that really helped me, being able to hear from someone like me, who was another solo marketer]The topics and problems she writes about are actually relevant to me, as opposed to a lot of the content you normally read, which is kind of written for people who have $10 million budgets.

Whereas, you know, for most startups I've worked at, I've had, $1,000 worth of any budget, if at all. So it’s very refreshing to get content like that.

Follow Stacy on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stacy-goh/

Jasper: https://www.jasper.ai/

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